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Evolution only takes 20 years

  • Aug. 13th, 2004 at 1:09 AM
side-beard-flip
Next time a creationist says that we've never seen evolution happen, cite this. Chichlid fish, which have a particularly rapid rate of evolution, were introduced into a lake in the 1960's. In 1983 when researches looked, there was one species. In 2001, there were two, differently colored and genetically distinct, living on different places.

No humans selectively breeding. No fossil evidence. No millenial time spans. No faith required.

[ Thanks to this GNXP blog entry for the tip].

Comments

[info]kuddliphish wrote:
Aug. 13th, 2004 03:01 pm (UTC)
You gotta have faith
So this might fall under the type of post that you just can't relate to but I can't let this slide.

Faith is indeed required to give credence to this finding. Expecting hard-core creationists to change their minds based on a scientific article is like asking hard-core evolutionists to change their minds by reading a religious article. Neither side believes the "experts" that the other side adheres to.

And this isn't because creationists are necessarily stupid--they're just skeptical in a different way.

To believe the article you cite, you have to trust in the researchers, who are probably biased toward evolution. You have to have faith that no other species of Chichlid fish were introduced in the twenty years between studies. (apparently there are thousands of species of this fish so if one could be accidentally introduced it doesn't take a very suspicious mind to wonder if another might have been as well.) You have to assume they did whatever mysterious processes they need to do to determine one species from the other correctly, and further have faith that those tests actually mean what the researchers tell you they mean. If you don't proscribe to the religion of science, you don't have the faith necessary to believe in this finding. To believe in anything in this world you gotta have faith of some kind or another.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Aug. 13th, 2004 03:24 pm (UTC)
Re: You gotta have faith
I think there is a qualitative difference between Faith1 and Faith2. Faith1 is required by the fact that we don't have time to go investigate everything ourselves. We do need to use Faith1 constantly, even in science. But we could, in theory, go check these results out ourselves. We could put 1 species of chichlid in our own pond, and watch it for 20 years. Someone may do this over the next few decades.

Faith2 is simply untestable.

When I said "no faith required", I was acknowledging that a belief in geologic-scale evolution *does* require some faith. In fact, it even requires some Faith2 - a theory about what happens over millenia is not directly testable over a human lifespan. Now, I think the circumstantial evidence is incredibly massive (especially in these days of gene sequencing and molecular biology), but I admit that its still circumstantial.

To some degree, human breeding can demonstrate evolution faithlessly, in that we can change an environment and watch a species adapt genetically. That proves, through a simple observation, that species can adapt genetically when their environment changes. But maybe that is only because we put such strong selection pressure on them. Maybe that isn't how evolution works in the wild.

The chichlid evidence demonstrates that evolution can happen in a directly observable way without any selection pressure imposed by humans. Without knowing how to compare gene sequences of the chichlids, you could simply watch them diverge. (perhaps check by attempted crossbreeding).

You are right that it still requires a little faith. But this moves some part of the theory of evolution into the realm of Faith1, specifically the question "Can evolution happen without human selective pressure". I still think there is a fundamental difference between Faith1 and Faith2, and so "No Faith2 required" is a meaningful and relevant statement.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Dec. 13th, 2005 06:08 pm (UTC)
Evolution
Yeah there is evolution and there is before christ and after and there is God who created scientists and sick people who do sick things and why? Kids get cancer and are born with there intestines on the outside of their bodies and why do mine seem so, healthy? But, you know I would much rather depend on God than myself. Humans hate lack of control and demand freewill. DEcisions have to be made regardless but, with all of the negative possibilities I hope there is devine intervention or I am screwed. Anyway, my genetic makeup was detrmined by God just like this long comment I am posting. I'll never know the answers and people can't exept A god who gives us freewill to kill ourselves in one course or another but, I hope this isn't my only chance to make it through this maze cause I am lost.

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