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bellicose sleep deprivation

  • Jul. 28th, 2004 at 2:31 PM
side-beard-flip
Monday and Tuesday nights I slept horribly. While unpleasant, it was a good reminder that while I still don't yet sleep "well" very often, if ever, I do sleep "so-so" most of the time, and have a lot less horrible nights than I used to.

Last night I slept much better, and awoke to find that I'd gotten into some arguments, and had several dozen LJ and NT comments filling my inbox. I spent awhile responding, but now its time to get back to finishing my taxes. So here is a question in case any of you happen to know such things:

As a self-employed consultant, I can deduct certain qualifying educational expenses (ie tuition for Stanford masters in CS) straight off my income. Now for the Hope and Lifetime Learning credits, it is specifically stated that tuition payed in one year for education beginning in the first quarter of the following year can be deducted in the year paid. Is this also true for my self-employment deduction? I'm going to assume that it is, but if anyone knows for sure...

Comments

(Anonymous) wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 03:54 pm (UTC)
If you are deducting expenses for your Masters, you are definitely in for an audit. You can only deduct educational expenses that are not for a degree granting program. i.e. stuff that improves your readiness to do a job, but which doesn't give you "credentials".

Nice try though.

Your pals in the IRS.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 08:54 pm (UTC)
what?
Um, this is false. I dunno what you are talking about. The IRS provides a flowchart, and I followed it, and I qualify. It can be a degree generating program. It just must be relevant, must not be required, and it must not be to qualify you for a new trade.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2004 10:43 am (UTC)
Re: what?
Good luck convincing the IRS that you meet the tests with a consulting job that pays less than tuition at a degree granting program. More power to you for trying, but at any reasonable pay rate you aren't breaking the bar for "material participation" in the business. Since they already have a hard-on for you, I would expect more trouble if you are going to skate the edge. Trying to say that you were materially participating while getting a degree is something they are going to look at very closely.

Remember, over 500 hours a year is material participation in a business. 500hrs*$100/hr = $50,000. I'm guessing from your postings that you didn't hit that bar on the billable hours side, so you're likely going to have to show them where all the unbilled time went.


[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jul. 30th, 2004 01:23 pm (UTC)
Re: what?
This is completely wrong. More than 500 hours is one of many criteria for "material participation." Another is: "You were substantially the only participant in the activity during the tax year." Thus any sole proprietorship consulting business where only the proprietor works qualifies. Like me.

Read this.
[info]175560 wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 08:58 pm (UTC)
False. If the degree maintains or improves skills needed in your present work, and does not qualify you for a new trade or business, then it is deductible as a business expense.
[info]prock wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 04:01 pm (UTC)
Hire an Accountant?
Is there something so wrong with getting professional help here? Whenever I've filed Schedule C for a business, I've always used an accountant. The depreciation rules and deductions are all so arcane that it's worth the opportunity cost.

I mean, you could play poker for 3-8 hours, or spend a week obsessing about your taxes. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
[info]simonfunk wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 04:54 pm (UTC)
Re: Hire an Accountant?
You really overestimate how much the average (even recommended) accountant knows. In my experience (I've been through this cycle a few times now), they will certainly have an answer, but it's more often wrong than right for anything remotely tricky or ambiguous. I highly recommend The Tax Guide for Engineers, which has taken far less of my time and given me far more useful answers than any accountant has. I don't know if it will answer Patri's specific question, but it's worth having on the shelf as a first reference.
[info]madduckdes wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 06:36 pm (UTC)
Re: Hire an Accountant?
there are plenty of great self-help books in the world, and there's nothing wrong with a desire to understand something yourself before talking to a professional. and i'm willing to admit that in every prof., there're people who suck at their jobs (mechanics, teachers, you name it). that being said, a decent accountant will save you a lot of time and heartache. a GOOD accountant can make the IRS shoo with a few strokes of the pen - or strokes of the laser printer, as it were.

as mr. or ms. anon demonstrated, asking for random advice gets you random answers. as i understand it, there's nothing wrong with taking a lifetime learning credit for tuition paid to a degree granting masters program. you mentioned the hope in your post; i thought hope was only for your first two years of college education? i will refrain from giving any actual advice because, ahem, i am not an accountant.

as another alternative, you can call up the irs and the ftb and they'll give you tax advice themselves, including citing the rule that justifies the advice they're giving. you can find their contact info at their web sites. good luck.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 08:57 pm (UTC)
Re: Hire an Accountant?
I can deduct because I'm self-employed and the education is relevant to my trade. Its neither hope nor lifetime learning. Normal employees can't really do this because there is some tiny cap on what you can deduct (like 2% of AGI), but self-employed people have no limit.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 08:55 pm (UTC)
Re: Hire an Accountant?
My taxes are generally so simple its not worth an accountant. This is my first schedule C. Plus using Turbotax helps a lot.
[info]sunshine__girl wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 06:52 pm (UTC)
I'll take a stab at this one. The general rule is that if an expenses is "ordinary and necessary" and paid according to the business' accounting method, it is deductible. Since these are expenses that relate to your business and are paid in cash (your accounting method), they should be deductible. However, sometimes the IRS has weird rules for certain types of expenses. Here's a link to the publication on education expenses to see if there's anything special you need to know. (PDF)
[info]175560 wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 08:41 pm (UTC)
Just read the documentation, DAMNIT!!!
Publications 334 (Tax Guide For Small Businesses), 535 (Business Expenses), and 970 (Tax Benefits for Education) are also relevant to this question, and Publications 334 and 535 seems generally very helpful for filing Schedule C. I would download them all and glance over them so you know what questions are answered where. From my reading of Publication 970, your expense may or may not be legitimate, depending on whether it improves your skills in doing your present business, and whether or not it qualifies you for a new trade or business. See pages 53 to 56, especially the flowchart on page 54. As for your original question, this depends on whether you have decided to use a cash or accrual method of accounting for your business. Under the cash method, the expense is deducted in the year it was paid; under the accrual method, the expense is only deducted after the all-events test has been met, and economic performance has occurred. In this case, "economic performance" would be completion of the courses that you have paid for. See pages 4 and 5 of Publication 535 for more details.

Among all the people I've talked taxes with, only Kim Jensen and I seem to have figured out that the U.S. personal income tax system is astoundingly well documented. Virtually any conceivable question is answered in the forms and publications... that's how I figured out, for instance, how to transform an old 403(b)(7) plan with poor investment choices into a Roth IRA. Patri, you can give me a call if you have any questions; I'd be glad to point you in the right direction, with the caveat that I am not a tax professional, and therefore not legally qualified to give tax advice. :)
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jul. 28th, 2004 08:58 pm (UTC)
Re: Just read the documentation, DAMNIT!!!
Shouldn't you have just titled that comment "RTFM" ?

Thanks for the help, Brian!

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