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IEEE Special Report: The Singularity

  • May. 31st, 2008 at 9:35 PM
side-beard-flip
haven't read it yet, but this looks interesting. It's got a piece by Robin Hanson, so it can't be all bad.

I am a disbeliever in many definitions of Singularity I've heard (like Ray Kurzweil's Accelerating Returns), yet other versions (that we will eventually have smarter than human AI) seem inevitable to me. So I'm simultaneously a Singularity skeptic and believer.

Or as a wise man once said "There may be two transhumanists out there who agree with each other about everything - but I am not one of them"

:).

UPDATE: Reading the who's who of singulitarians PDF, while I often disagreed, I only twice went "What an idiot, that's ridiculous." Guesses? (not that it should be very hard).

Comments

[info]dmorr wrote:
Jun. 1st, 2008 04:52 am (UTC)
Yeah, that Penrose guy is a moron. I can't think of a single thing he's done that is remotely impressive.
[info]spoonless wrote:
Jun. 1st, 2008 06:29 am (UTC)
He and Searle are the only ones on the list whose views I see as completely idiotic. Penrose has done a few impressive things, but for some reason he has always been insane when it comes to anything involving philosophy of mind or philosophy of mathematics.

All of the rest of the opinions I think represent reasonably plausible scenarios. Kurzweil is too overconfident about his "definitely going to happen in 15 years" but I still think he and Bostrom have made the best guesses about what we'll see over the next century of anyone on the list.
[info]spoonless wrote:
Jun. 1st, 2008 06:39 am (UTC)
Although come to think of it, I'm not sure why they quoted him as saying "15 years" because the big singularity he usually talks about he doesn't expect until 2045. The 15-year quote must be referring to a smaller, minor singularity... apparently when humans begin uploading.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jun. 1st, 2008 07:23 pm (UTC)
Yes, exactly. Penrose & Searle.
[info]herooftheage wrote:
Jun. 2nd, 2008 02:50 am (UTC)
Yeah, I whiffed on Searle my first pass through, since the Chinese Box Problem has some points of interest; but ended up coming back to him when I couldn't convince myself that your second guy was Bill Joy.

[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jun. 1st, 2008 07:31 pm (UTC)
Someone's other accomplishments have never mattered to me much when calling someone an idiot because they said something idiotic. Which I think is a good thing. And I sure hope that, regardless of what I accomplish in life, people never stop calling me an idiot when I say stupid things.

And this is a really, really stupid thing to say:

Consciousness cannot be duplicated in computational machines, because it depends on “noncomputational physical processes.” Does not know what these might be but suggests it emerges from “large-scale” quantum-
mechanical phenomena in microtubules in the brain’s neurons. “ I’m not saying that consciousness is
beyond physics...although I’m saying that it’s beyond the physics we know now.”


It's one small step from believing in witchcraft, in my book. He's practically positing a soul, even if he wraps it in pseudoscience.

There is nothing remotely beyond today's physics about consciousness.
[info]alexx_kay wrote:
Jun. 2nd, 2008 02:54 pm (UTC)
And now you need not waste hours of your life reading _The Emperor's New Mind_. It's a book-length version of your quoted paragraph, and just as vulnerable to your criticism (which is much the same as my reaction when I read the book).

"There is nothing remotely beyond today's physics about consciousness."

That's a half-step further than I would go. I would say "There isn't any evidence that human consciousness is significantly affected by currently-unknown physics." But a statement about unknowns is inherently impossible to prove. And since we are still fairly far from a good understanding of how consciousness *does* work, it remains (barely) plausible that some fancy physics turns out to be a requisite ingredient. That said, any such physics, if it isn't just magic under another name, will be able to be used to build machines that are conscious, which completely undercuts Penrose's argument.

For more valuable (IMNSHO) insights into consciousness, see Marvin Misnky's latest book, _The Emotion Machine_.
[info]steuard wrote:
Jun. 1st, 2008 06:13 pm (UTC)
I haven't read any of the articles linked, but I saw a fascinating physics colloquium a few years ago that implied that no true mathematical "singularity" in computing power was possible. Black hole physics tells us that the greatest possible "information density" (as defined by entropy) occurs in black holes, and that this maximal density scales as the surface area of the contained region (rather than the volume). So according to our best understanding of the laws of physics, there is a strict upper bound on the amount of information (or, say, computing power) that could ever be contained within the entire observable universe. Among other things, that bound implies that even Moore's law can't possibly continue for more than (forgetting exact number here) a couple hundred years. Any function that diverged more sharply would of course be even more tightly constrained.

That doesn't forbid a startlingly rapid jump, of course, but it would level off.
[info]spoonless wrote:
Jun. 3rd, 2008 01:34 am (UTC)
I used to think that the term "technological singularity" referred to some kind of infinity showing up in a graph of technological progress. But after I started talking to the people at the Singularity Institute, and went to the Stanford Singularity Sumit and listened to most of the world's experts on the singularity speak, I found out that none of them actually believe this. In fact, of all the reading I've done online about it at this point, and of all of the singularitarians I've met or encountered on singularity mailing lists (such as SL4), I've never encountered a single one who says this--although that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't people out there who believe it.

Kurzweil, Bostrom, Yudkowski, et al are all very aware and familiar with the limits on information imposed due to black holes and the holographic principle. Vernor Vinge, who originally proposed the term "singularity" it appears was making an analogy to when a coordinate chart ends and cannot map the rest of the manifold... in other words, our current extrapolations about what will happen to the future of technology may only extend to the point where super-human AI takes over, at which point our chart ends and anything afterwords could happen. I think that if Vinge were a physicist rather than a mathematician, he probably would have used the word "event horizon" instead of singularity since that is a more accurate analogy to what he's talking about--even though event horizions *do* represent a coordinate singularity.

Regarding Moore's Law not being able to maintain for more than another 100 years... as I mentioned, most singularitarians are aware that the information density (and processing power density) are limitted by the laws of physics. But as Kurzweil is fond of saying "the limits aren't all that limiting". His view is that we will reach what he calls the technological singularity long before we run into this limit. This is expected to happen once AI's are self-improving their own IQ's at such a rapid rate that there's no possible way a normal unmodified human could keep up or comprehend the changes that are happening to the planet after that.

Pointing out that we'd reach complete saturation of the Bekenstein bound in 100 years only serves to illustrate how fast the current exponential progress is... and how fast we will get closer to that bound and could transform the entire planet and solar system before that time.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jun. 2nd, 2008 01:15 am (UTC)
Human intelligence is already on an exponential curve. The mean of intelligence today is greater than at times past, when the mean was greater than at times past, etc. We have greater than human intelligences coming online all the time.

This makes this definition of singularity distinctly non-singular.
[info]freelikebeer wrote:
Jun. 2nd, 2008 08:37 pm (UTC)
I haven't read much about the singularity. I am vaguely aware of Ray Kurzweil's idea [which I don't really believe in; and I don't know about the whole uploading thing, kind of wonky]. But lately I've been digging the use-a-computer-to-expand-your-brainpower-because-it's-a-badass-calculator meme.
[info]magicalypse wrote:
Jun. 3rd, 2008 01:01 pm (UTC)
I started responding to this issue here:

http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=817
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/?p=818

Responding in detail is so... boring... but if I don't do it, no one else will. :(

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