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  • Dec. 13th, 2006 at 10:47 AM
side-beard-flip
unread LJ comments = 60 (and that's threaded). guess it's a good time to be sick. although not really - we are thinking of cancelling our LA road trip this weekend. And Shannon had some kind of weird involuntary drug-like experience (most likely suspect is some crazy-ass chocolate + 5htp) and has hardly slept since Sunday night (post 1, post 2, post 3). So actually it's a crappy time to be sick. Sigh. At least T hasn't gotten sick yet.

Any theories on the cause of S's experience are welcome - it is weird and scary. Here is a summary of psychoactive chemicals in chocolate. Personally I am most suspicious of PEA: "Taken in unnaturally high doses, phenylethylamine can produce stereotyped behaviour more prominently even than amphetamine. Phenylethylamine has distinct binding sites but no specific neurons. It helps mediate feelings of attraction, excitement, giddiness, apprehension and euphoria; but confusingly, phenylethylamine has also been described as an endogenous anxiogen. One of its metabolites is unusually high in subjects with paranoid schizophrenia."

Comments

(Anonymous) wrote:
Dec. 13th, 2006 08:52 pm (UTC)
has she unwittingly consumed any monoamine oxidase inhibitors or CYP4502D6 inhibitors? They often cause adverse reactions when combined with other (naturally occuring chemicals)

atek3
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 02:28 am (UTC)
I don't think there are any maoi's in her diet. I can check if she had grapefruit juice, but that inhibits CYP450 3A4, not 2D6, and I don't know of any common natural 2d6 inhibitors.
[info]jacqueline1776 wrote:
Dec. 13th, 2006 09:15 pm (UTC)
Does she have any bipolar tendencies or any other sort of mood disorder? I vaguely recall reading somewhere once that the caffeine and/or sugar in chocolate can trigger manic episodes in some people. Google seems to support this:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2004-51%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=bipolar+mania+chocolate+trigger
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 02:31 am (UTC)
Interesting, that's possible, although it is strange that it never happened before. She does have mood swings, but not to the degree that I associate with bipolar.
[info]jacqueline1776 wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 08:21 pm (UTC)
Well I assume if you've been tired and stressed out. she's probably been tired and stressed out too, and with her equilibrium already compromised it seems plausible that something that wouldn't normally knock a well-rested and calm person off kilter could knock a tired and stressed person off.

There's a "bipolar lite" called cyclothymia, characterized by bigger-than-normal mood swings but no actual craziness (not suicidal or delusional).... I don't even think most cyclothymics take medication, but I don't know much about it.
[info]choiceful wrote:
Apr. 11th, 2008 04:54 am (UTC)
Wow, you totally diagnosed me. At the time Patri and I glossed over this, but on reread you nailed it. Good job ;)
[info]jacqueline1776 wrote:
Apr. 11th, 2008 11:27 pm (UTC)
Cool, glad you finally nailed down what it is.

I've read that omega 3 supplements can be as effective as drugs for cyclothymics and other moderate bipolars (without he nasty side effects of the drugs). Check out _The Omega-3 Connection_ by Dr. Andrew Stoll.
[info]choiceful wrote:
Apr. 12th, 2008 02:44 am (UTC)
Thanks, I'll look into it.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Dec. 13th, 2006 09:46 pm (UTC)
Random, if unfortunate, variation.
Even if your wife had taken incredibly high doses of genuine amphetamine it would not cost her two nights sleep in a row -- the half-life is just not that long.
Or, the empirical introspective angle: I personally have never felt even a cup-of-coffee's worth of stimulation from however much chocolate I can consume in one sititng. Let alone what you're describing.
She's probably just sick. :(
Armchair Theorist Alcibiades
(Anonymous) wrote:
Dec. 13th, 2006 09:49 pm (UTC)
On the bright side, substituted phenethylamines can be very fun, I've recently learned...
Alcibiades
[info]rifhutch wrote:
Dec. 13th, 2006 10:31 pm (UTC)
You totally need to get out a giant whiteboard and do this diagnosis House-style. I've no reason to think this is the case, but any possibility of it being a food allergy or reaction to something besides the chocolate? (Nuts or spices in the mixture?)
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 02:32 am (UTC)
but
Allergies don't cause this sort of reaction (except on House).
[info]rifhutch wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 03:24 am (UTC)
Re: but
True, although there has been speculation about intolerance to additives causing hyperactivity it is entirely unproven. I guess TV has conditioned me to play for the long shots. Hope she feels better soon.
[info]flamingnerd wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 01:56 am (UTC)
[info]neoteny sent me over to take a look because i'm a geek about this stuff.


the first thing that came to my mind was theobromine poisoning. we humans are very good at metabolizing theobromine -which is known as *the* happy drug in chocolate. but dogs, cats and other animals are not good at metabolizing it. and they go insane and sometimes die if given chocolate.

a description of theobromine poisoning

i'd wonder if she has a problem with her liver function or if she's taking any meds that might affect her liver. something to check up on. it might be totally off base, but liver function is easily analzyed with a blood draw.


-oh, and my gut instinct is that taking extra tryptophan isn't gonna affect her mood, but i don't have the time to look into it and confirm that for certain. it's just that we get lots of trp in our diets, and the amount varies greatly, so there must be some regulation preventing us from getting too much in our synapses after we've had a big steak or a huge bowl of edamame if we're that kind of protien eater. :P
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 02:38 am (UTC)
Theobromine poisoning definitely sounds possible:

"Clinical signs of chocolate toxicosis usually occur within 6-12 hr of ingestion. Initial signs may include polydipsia, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal distention, and restlessness. Signs may progress to hyperactivity, polyuria, ataxia, tremors, and seizures. Tachycardia, premature ventricular contractions, tachypnea, cyanosis, hypertension, hyperthermia, bradycardia, hypotension, or coma may occur. Hypokalemia may occur late in the course of the toxicosis, contributing to cardiac dysfunction. Death is generally due to cardiac arrhythmias, hyperthermia, or respiratory failure. The high fat content of chocolate products may trigger pancreatitis in susceptible animals."

It did start with some abdominal discomfort, and include restlessness, hyperactivity, frequent urination, low appetite, tremors, tachycardia, and hyperthermia.

The suggestion of a liver function test is an excellent one, we will do that, thanks.

note that it was 5htp, rather than tryptophan, and 5htp is past the rate-limiting step for conversion to serotonin. However, she did not have very much, and the symptoms started before she took it. Besides, her symptoms are much more stimulant-like than serotonin-like.
[info]flamingnerd wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 02:58 am (UTC)
>5htp is past the rate-limiting step for conversion to serotonin.

excellent, that's the kind of thing i don't have the time to find out.

i also don't know if it's capable of being taken up across the blood brain barrier. -it's certainly possible since the transporter that takes up TRP is pretty promiscuous in that it also takes up PHE and TYR. -but you might want to look that up.
[info]choiceful wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 02:41 am (UTC)
Thanks, we looked at the article and it certainly sounds possible. Nice hair/head decor too! :)
[info]flamingnerd wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 03:05 am (UTC)
thank you :D it's actually a funny story: http://flamingnerd.livejournal.com/?skip=250#flamingnerd87993

i have hair now :) that was marker to prettify my head and make me feel less ugly :P
[info]coderay wrote:
Dec. 14th, 2006 09:43 pm (UTC)
Has she lost any weight? I've read that certain psychotropic drugs can become trapped in fat cells and cause flashbacks year later if those fat cells are metabolized.

A slow release of LSD (I don't know if such a substance might be in there somewhere) might explain the relatively mild drug-like experience and the sleepless nights.

Just an idea.

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