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To continue my rabble-rousing

  • Jul. 17th, 2006 at 4:35 PM
side-beard-flip
Here is a good piece by Thomas Schelling on global warming.
It is with the less-developed countries that we have to be most careful about superimposing the climates of the future on the economies and societies of today. As it was in our own country during this century, the trend in developing countries is to be less dependent on agriculture and less vulnerable to climate in transportation and other activities and health. If per capita income growth in the next 40 years compares with the 40 years just past, vulnerability to climate change should diminish, and the resources available for adaptation should be greater. I say this not to minimize concern about climate change, but to anticipate the question of whether developing countries should make sacrifices in their development to minimize the emission of gases that may change climate to their disadvantage. Their best defense against climate change may be their own continued development.

This is a point worth emphasizing. Some environmentalists argue that developing countries should sacrifice some of their hopes for economic development in the interest of slowing the climate change that may prove disastrous. But the advice contains a contradiction. Any disaster to developing countries from climate change will be a disaster to their economic development.
...
At this point, I appear to have reached the conclusion that the developed world has no self-interest in expensively curtailing carbon consumption and that the developing cannot afford to incur economic penalties to slow the greenhouse effect. There is a mismatch between those who may be vulnerable to climate change and those who can afford to do anything about it.
...
A strong argument for trying seriously to slow climate change is that the developing countries are vulnerable and we care. Developed countries are currently providing $50 billion per year of assistance to the developing world; we would be talking about expending or forgoing perhaps 4-8 times that much to slow emissions and slow climate change. Whether people in the developed democracies could be mobilized to contribute so much to benefit, half a century from now, the people in the countries we now call developing I do not know, but I believe that if the developed countries were prepared to invest, say, $200 billion per year in greenhouse-gas abatement, explicitly for the benefit of developing countries 50 years or more from now, the developing countries would clamor to receive the resources immediately in support of their continued development. There would undoubtedly be abatement opportunities so cheap that they could compete with direct aid to developing countries, but it would be hard to make the case that the countries we now perceive as vulnerable would be better off 50 or 75 years from now if 10 or 20 trillions of dollars had been invested in carbon abatement rather than in their economic development.
...
The third argument for spending heavily to slow climate change is that the conclusions I reported earlier may be quite wrong. I said that the climate models predict that climates will change slowly and not much; the models do not produce discontinuities, surprises, catastrophes. What is known about weather and climate constitutes an equilibrium system...The possibility has to be considered that if global temperature increases, not by the median estimate of three degrees Celsius for a doubling of carbon in the atmosphere, but by four or five degrees and continues to rise beyond the doubling because carbon fuels are still in use worldwide, some atmospheric or oceanic circulatory systems may switch to alternative equilibria, producing regional changes that are both sudden and extreme.
...
Insurance against catastrophes is thus an argument for doing something expensive about greenhouse emissions. But to pay a couple percent of GNP as insurance premium, one would hope to know more about the risk to be averted. I believe research to improve climate predictions should be concentrated on the extreme possibilities, not on modest improvements to median projections.

I said that current estimates suggest that it might cost a couple percent of GNP to postpone the doubling of carbon in the atmosphere by several decades. Is 2 percent a big number or a small one?

That depends on your perspective and on what the comparison is. In recent years 100 billion dollars per year in budgets or taxes has been a politically unmanageable magnitude in the United States. On the other hand, subtracting 2 percent from GNP in perpetuity lowers the GNP curve by not much more than the thickness of a line drawn with a number-two pencil, or to formulate it as I did earlier, it postpones the GNP of 2050 until 2051. I say this not to belittle the loss of 10 trillion dollars from the American GNP over the next 60 years, but only to point out that the insurance premium, if we choose to pay it, will not send us to the poorhouse. The proper question is whether, if we were prepared to spend 2 percent of our GNP in the interest of protecting against damage due to climate change, we might find better use for the money.

I have mentioned one use: directly investing to improve the economies of the poorer countries. Another would be direct investment in preserving species, ecosystems, or wilderness areas.

Comments

[info]djsendai wrote:
Jul. 17th, 2006 11:46 pm (UTC)
..and given the dollar amounts he's talking about, on the whole a much better long-term investment than say, spending hundreds of billions of dollars destroying people and infrastructure in oil-rich countries throughout the middle east.

[info]atek128 wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2006 03:21 am (UTC)
The only way I'd support a serious carbon tax is if it was offset by a major reduction in the income tax.

atek3
[info]jellymillion wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2006 08:27 am (UTC)
And of course, investing in poor country economies is indirectly investing in your own country's markets, which is probably not a bad thing.

While it all makes obvious good sense, my cynical grumpiness immediately rules it unimplementable from a political standpoint, because it's so easy for opponents to apply negative spin. Which, whatever their actual view might be, they would undoubtedly do, because an opposition politician's short-term goals (to him/her) vastly outweight trivialities like their grandchildren having a planet on which they can live...

I'd love to be wrong, though.
[info]glenra wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2006 09:51 am (UTC)
If you really want to rouse the rabble, bring up the Wegman report with people who've seen Gore's movie. :-/
[info]jamey1138 wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2006 11:41 am (UTC)
Ironically, I haven't seen the movie, but I've read the executive summary to the Wegman report (and I've read Gore's book-- I guess I'm more of a reader than a watcher...)

Having done a stint training up as a professional scientist in the ecology field, with a statistically-intensive paleoclimatologist as one of my thesis committee, I'm not particularly shocked by Wegman. Statistics are routinely mishandled and misused by professional scientists of all stripes, particularly those working in fields where (a) complex interactions of forces create results that are difficult to model with accuracy or (b) data is scarce. Paleoclimatology suffers from both problems.

Also, the overdependence on peer review cited is a part of modern academic science. As my advisor often said, "The dirty secret about science is that there are three or four greybeards in any small niche interest who rabidly read each other's work, while nobody else notices. If it's not in Science or Nature, nobody's going to see it." I think that this is the natural result of market forces on academic research: journals need to publish something to make money, so they stimulate the "publish or perish" mentality, while also happily publishing articles which none of the editors of that journal particularly understand, counting instead on a panel of independant reviewers (the aforementioned small pool of greybeards).

What's most amusing to me is that the Bush administration spent the effort to commission a report on this, so as to attempt to discredit a movie. I sincerely doubt that the Wegman report will really crack the door on the problems with academic research (which is unfortunate), because that would require a lot of educating the public, who have no desire to be so educated (preferring to use the report as a political football).

*sigh*
[info]ftoc wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2006 12:23 pm (UTC)
1992
the models do not produce discontinuities, surprises, catastrophes

i didn't notice until i took a look at the entire original article that it first appeared in 1992, which i guess was before models generating catastrophes appeared.
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2006 12:59 pm (UTC)
Come on Patri. It's a false choice. Energy consumption in the US plummeted for a long time after the Arab oil embargo and nobody can claim it was because the US was sacraficing an amount of GDP growth that anyone cared about. The plain fact of the matter is that wasting energy is expensive, even with all the externalities factored out. And energy efficient technology tends to open up all kinds of interesting positive GDP uses and products.

See some of Amory Lovins stuff for examples.

http://www.ccnr.org/amory.html
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2006 01:19 pm (UTC)
Lovins' more recent stuff is also pretty interesting (and obviously more relevant):

http://oilendgame.com/ReadTheBook.html

The presentation is a pretty good summary.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2006 05:22 pm (UTC)
Ehen saving energy pays for itself, it happens without laws or proselytizing by environmentalists. We don't actually need to "do" anything (in the sense of creating a big social movement or worldwide regulation). So that argument supports the "do nothing" approach. I certainly wish that was true, but I am pessimisstic that, especially in developing countries, energy efficiency will counteract the use of fossil fuels.
[info]corwyn_ap wrote:
Jul. 19th, 2006 12:46 pm (UTC)
it happens without laws or proselytizing by environmentalists.

People are pretty terrible at saving energy. Some of them even know this and hire me to tell them how (you might claim that counts as good). Look at the number of people who don't use CFLs despite a 300% return on investment (not including tax benefits or labor value of changing fewer bulbs). A big social movement would be a big help in my opinion.

I don't see how a tax on carbon of say $50/ton (which I have seen as price for sequestering) is anything more than internalizing an externality. Something I thought economists were in favor of.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jul. 19th, 2006 09:24 pm (UTC)
I am generally in favor of internalizing externalities, but there are a few problems here. First is the question of how to accurately price the externality - which brings up all these questions about what is happening w/ global warming and how much it will matter. But that isn't a great argument, because there is always uncertainty about how to price these things, so you might as well just try your best.

The bigger worry is what the money gets spent on. That is, if the money gets spent on ameliorating the externality, fabulous, that's good economics. But if it gets given to some intergovernmental organization and lost into waste and corruption, then its not clear that its actually worthwhile to internalize the externality.

Also, you are right about proselytizing. Economists/libertarians tend to ignore real truths about how information needs to be spread, and people don't automatically know what the efficient thing is. Please keep pointing this mistake if I keep making it :).
[info]corwyn_ap wrote:
Jul. 19th, 2006 10:41 pm (UTC)

I was specifically thinking of using the tax to sequester the carbon. The $50/ton is an actual quote on current technology, currently happening, carbon sequestering. I am not sure how or if it scales.

That amounts to $0.05 per gallon. Gas went up by that much around here today.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Jul. 20th, 2006 01:31 am (UTC)
wow, that's pretty cheap. If the money actually went to sequestering, I'd support it. Although it will only have a limited effect if China & India don't sign on.
[info]akjdg wrote:
Jul. 20th, 2006 07:19 am (UTC)
I( think the markets (and my mastery of them) are/is still evolving, but carbon taxes, green tags, renewable energy credits (RECs), and a number of similar market vehicles already exist to either sequester avoid, or defer carbon emissions. See the Chicago Climate Exchange, or search the internet for 'green tags'.

To the extent that there is a voluntary market for these commodities (as there currently is in the US), and there are people who can make money selling these things (there are), then carbon sequestration/avoidance/deferral will scale up and up as far as allowed by the macroeconomics.

One of my current frustrations is that the market for this is still so premature. We are trying to develop renewable hydroelectric projects in Alaska that qualify as 'good hydro', but the market to buy the green tags from these projects doesn't really exist as yet. The project economics are helped immensely by green tags, so it would be nice to be able to count on them for revenue.

Getting the US, still drinking 25% of the world's crude at last count, to sign on would be pretty damn fine, even without China and India. Then there's coal...
[info]shandrew wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2006 01:28 pm (UTC)
It's been a while since my days in econ classes, but if I recall correctly, the real goal of internalizing the externality is to set the level of consumption properly, such that including externalities, people will only consume the good if they get more out of it than it costs.

What the money gets spent on is certainly important, but it can be completely separated from the source of the money. Plus, with even small governments, they can say, "all of this funding will go to X," then behind the scenes lower the funding for X by the equivalent amount from some other source and few people will notice.

Economists/libertarians tend to ignore real truths about how information needs to be spread

I often wish that all electronics makers would stick a typical usage electricity cost label (like refrigerators have) on them, then i could see which dinky little piece of gear is going to tack on another $30 a year for electricity due to a crappy transformer...sometimes i wonder why better quality gear doesn't advertise these savings.
[info]patrissimo wrote:
Aug. 7th, 2006 09:58 pm (UTC)
It's been a while since my days in econ classes, but if I recall correctly, the real goal of internalizing the externality is to set the level of consumption properly, such that including externalities, people will only consume the good if they get more out of it than it costs.

What the money gets spent on is certainly important, but it can be completely separated from the source of the money. Plus, with even small governments, they can say, "all of this funding will go to X," then behind the scenes lower the funding for X by the equivalent amount from some other source and few people will notice.


I don't believe that to be true. Or at least, if that is what they say, then they are wrong :).

It's very easy to see why: the whole point of setting the level of consumption properly is so that people will only make economically efficient decisions, those which gain the world more than they cost. If activity X costs $10 in resources, and imposes $5 of negative externalities, then anytime someone who values X at V does X, the result for the world is to lose $15 and get V, or a net of V - $10 (cost) - $5 (externality), or V - $15. If V is < $15, the world loses, and since the person will do X if V is between $10 and $15, the world is sometimes losing. Bummer.

Now suppose we charge people $5 for doing V, and we give the money to you. Now the equation for the world's loss is still V - $10 (cost) - $5 (externality), or V - $15, (the transfer doesn't affect total wealth), and they will only do X if V > $15, which means they only do things that are a net gain. Yay!

Now suppose we charge $5 for doing V, we take the money to buy $5 worth of things, and burn them. Now the equation for the world's loss is V - $10 (cost) - $5 (externality) - $5 (stuff burned), or V - 20$. Since the individual only faces $15 in costs, they will do X if V is between $15 and $20, yet the world loses. The loss is smaller, since the bad range is higher, therefore less people will do it, but it's still a loss.

Make sense?

In practice, however, while the government doesn't use its money efficiently, some of the "waste" consists of transfers, ie paying contractors to do useless things. This waste does not reduce societal wealth, only the resources used up by those contractors while doing useless things is a loss, not the "profit" they take home.
[info]peter_bayesian wrote:
Jul. 22nd, 2006 11:19 pm (UTC)

The proper question is whether, if we were prepared to spend 2 percent of our GNP in the interest of protecting against damage due to climate change, we might find better use for the money.

I have mentioned one use: directly investing to improve the economies of the poorer countries.

Given the track record of government spending that gets marketed as foreign aid but which ends up hurting the average resident of poor countries by ending up as support for corruption, it's easy to imagine that the practical alternatives for helping the poor are worse. It's relatively easy for voters to evaluate the effects of a carbon tax.

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